Media At Burning Man

[DaBomb]

I'm unhappy with the issue of media at Burning Man, specifically the Discovery Channel's coverage of a reality television show this past year. Maybe you heard about my campaign against it: http://www.savebrc.org

I think media at Burning Man inhibits radical self-expression.

I think there should be full disclosure about which media companies are present when I arrive on the playa. It upsets me to hear coverage of the event after the fact.

Finally, I believe there should be "Free Media Zones" and "Free Media Theme Camps" where one can reasonably expect no cameras or recording devices.

What do y'all think?

[iii]

if you read your ticket, you basically give up your right to your privacy when you enter the event.

besides which - if it weren't for the media, burning man wouldn't be nearly as successful as it now is!

[DaBomb]

You're right. Without the media, the event would still be some small party in the desert for the hipsters. Now, everyone can and should go to BurningManLand! It's a small world, after all.

[run.w.xcors]

I think media at Burning Man inhibits radical self-expression.

What do y'all think?

In an event full of show offs? Now, if you don't want to be seen walking around naked or topless in front of the world, I can understand, but most people I've met at BM are all too happy to express themselves for the masses.

Besides, I never would have known about BM if it weren't for an article in Wired magazine back in '96. I highly doubt word of mouth alone would have gotten us to where we are today.

[DaBomb]

I never would have known about BM if it weren't for an article in Wired magazine back in '96. I highly doubt word of mouth alone would have gotten us to where we are today.

Yes, I recall that article. Here's the photo they used of Larry Harvey in that piece: http://home.earthlink.net/~mybrc/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/harveytn.jpg

"Who and what are the media? First of all, it's anyone who carries a camera. Beyond that, it is the press, television, movies, radio, and now the Internet. These are merely mediums of communication. People carry on as if television sets were entities of evil or as if reporters and producers of programming were members of some sinister conspiracy, but why blame them? Our real problem is that these communication tools are used for certain economic purposes. TV is the worst offender. It isolates people and turns them into passive consumers...." -- Larry Harvey

[GrumpyOldBastard]

personally, i am looking forward to the Discovery Channel doc. they do good work. i live in a very small town. i like it here. i dont like big cities. if it we'rent for the media i would have never learned about BM. me and 1000's like me. i actively searched them out at the burn this year, to chat and find out more about the project. nice people, and i think they are going to a good job.

i am very aware of your stance about this subject. hell, i think everyone who knows anything at all about BM, and are on the web, knows about your stance on this subject. but, like those pesky xtians who come knocking on my door, trying to "convert" me to the "one way" i ignore them. or answer the door nekid.

media has been a part of BM for many, many years. why do we need to change that now, just because you decided you didnt/dont like it? why does everyone have to conform to your world view? trust me, you are sounding like a missionary for the "anti-media church of the do gooder". and you know what most people in remote areas do to missionaries! <burp> heh.


seriously, i would like to know WHY you think WE should conform to YOUR world view.

[DaBomb]

seriously, i would like to know WHY you think WE should conform to YOUR world view.

Seriously, I apologize if you're gotten that impression. I'm not trying to make anybody conform to anything.

My mission is to preserve the integrity of the event as I understand it and to raise awareness of the developments of media presence. So, apparently, according to you, my efforts have worked.

I've been called a lot of things for this, very similar to your "missionary" comment. But my most favorite is "fundamentalist". You have to admit that's funny! A fundamentalist burner!

Anyway, I appreciate your view and welcome it. It would be ludicrous to try to make anybody conform to mine. We're talking about, after all, Burning Man!

[GrumpyOldBastard]

thanks for not taking my reply as a insult. i didnt mean it that way. i'm still curious though.

why do you want *us* to conform to your world view on this subject? i do not find media obtrusive at BM *. the professional media are just that. professional. the amateurs can be a pain occasionally, true. if that happens, just take their memory card.




* except for the gawkers at the CT ride. heh. start a thread on THAT subject! i have lots to say!

[DaBomb]

i'm still curious though.

why do you want *us* to conform to your world view on this subject?

Just like Clinton, I will continue to deny this allegation, you Grumpy Old Bastard! I am not trying to make you convert or conform. Unless...you want me too! ;)


* except for the gawkers at the CT ride. heh. start a thread on THAT subject! i have lots to say!

Why don't you start that thread? Only a suggestion. I wasn't there, so can't really comment on this.

[GrumpyOldBastard]

heh heh heh

[Chai Guy]

I think that as a culture, we've completely lost the ability to "be in the moment". Have you ever gone to a concert, only to hear the yahoo next to you talking on a cell phone, saying something like "Dude!, you'll never guess where I am!"?? It's not enough to experience something anymore, it has to be recorded in some way to make it "more real".

It's ironic that we've also lost that ability at Burning Man, because being in the moment is precisely what attracted so many people there in the first place.

I'd say that as a conservative estimate, cameras outnumber people 2 to 1 at the event. As an "art" photography (all forms) contribute nothing to the event as it's happening, and I would even go so far as to say that they detract from positive personal interactions by placing a device (the camera) between people.

"Can I TAKE your picture?" instantly you become aware that the person is only interested in TAKING from the experience, with nothing given of themselves.

As an event Burning Man has been documented-to-death, here is a list of Burning Man documentaries I've been compiling, please let me know if I've missed your favorite one.
1. Burning Man Festival, Das (1997) -
2. Gifting It: A Burning Embrace of Gift Economy (2002) -
3. Juicy Danger Meets Burning Man (1998) -
4. The Burning Man Festival (1997) -
5. Nothing Without You (2004) -
6. Modern Tribalism (2002) (V) -
7. Working for the Man: The Building, Burning and Disappearance of Black Rock City 2000 (2001) -
8. Burning Karma (2003) -
9. Burning Man: Beyond Black Rock (2005)
10. Burn Baby Burn
11. Burning Man: The Burning Sensation (2002)
12. Astro Blaze
13. Burning Man: Just Add Couches (2003)
14. One man, one desert, 30,000 experiences
15. Into the Heart of Fire: At the Burning Man Festival
16. "Nosolomusica’s Burning Man 2001," the first Burning Man documentary done in Spanish.
17. "Burning Man 1994" by filmmaker Chuck Cirino, about the event’s early days.
18. Confessions of a Burning Man (2003)
19."Dust Devils"
20. Firefall: The Road to Burning Man
21. Burning Man 2020-t h e p h e n o m e n o n
22. Burning The Irish Bar
23. Gone Off Deep
24. AquaBurn Trilogy
25. Are You Lost?
26. "Welcome Home: Living at Burning Man" (in production)

For those keeping track that's more than one doc per year for each year the event has been happening.

Now we're faced with being invaded by Reality Television. This should come as no surprise, as there is even a current reality tv show about the Iraq War. This isn't journalism, it's entertainment. Unfortunately Burning Man was never supposed to be about entertainment, but rather your particpation and experience.

[GrumpyOldBastard]

only 27 documentary's so far? actually, thats not bad, considering the number of participants.

there is one more, but i cant remember the name of it off the top of my head.
(it was a gay doc, done in 99 or 2000, released in 2002)

[Chai Guy]

only 27 documentary's so far? actually, thats not bad, considering the number of participants.

Hmmm.. Mcdonald's has had billions of "participants" yet as far as I know only two documentaries have been produced: "Mclibel", and "Super Size Me".

Oh, and after doing some research, I found this list of BM docs, which includes a few I missed: http://www.adogandponyshow.com/filmography.html

[Blade]

"Can I TAKE your picture?" instantly you become aware that the person is only interested in TAKING from the experience, with nothing given of themselves.
Oh, come ON! That's bullshit!

You have no fucking idea what someone with a camera has done/ brought/ given/ etc etc... Some of my favorite pics I've seen were taken by people I know have worked the entire year on not only their own projects/ art/ etc for the playa but on projects with other people, for other events/ burner art galleries/ etc throughout the year- just because they finally take some time to rest after busting their asses all year - not to mention specifically all week- you have the gall to presume that they're "just taking" because they want some sort of lasting memory of the event???




Hmmm.. Mcdonald's has had billions of "participants" yet as far as I know only two documentaries have been produced: "Mclibel", and "Super Size Me".


Really... I mean, are you *really* suggesting that there's nothing but the sheer numbers to indicate why someone may want a recorded memory of a giant, long-term, evolving art-based social event/ experiment, compared to the intrinsic recordability of a place created to serve as many pieces of food-like product as fast as possible? That's just sad.

[Lovemonkey]

A fundamentalist burner!

That needs to be on a t-shirt.

[DaBomb]

That needs to be on a t-shirt.


Right? Just wondering if I'm a right wing conservative or a left wing radical. Either way, I'm clinging to the integrity of the 10 principles! :p

10 Principles: http://www.burningman.com/whatisburningman/about_burningman/principles.html

[Chai Guy]

You have no fucking idea what someone with a camera has done/ brought/ given/ etc etc... Some of my favorite pics I've seen were taken by people I know have worked the entire year on not only their own projects/ art/ etc for the playa but on projects with other people, for other events/ burner art galleries/ etc throughout the year- just because they finally take some time to rest after busting their asses all year - not to mention specifically all week- you have the gall to presume that they're "just taking" because they want some sort of lasting memory of the event???.

I wasn't presuming that, what I was saying was, that in the moment of asking "Can I take your picture" (or not asking permission and just taking your picture anyway, which is what I witness most people doing) it's a one way street, there isn't any interaction there, you're not contributing anything in the moment as a photographer. You're not experiencing life, you're recording it.

Have you ever felt violated by a photographer, or felt that somehow a camera interfered with your experience? Have you ever censored your actions or felt less free because a camera was around and you didn't know what might become of your image or how that image might effect you later on in life?

Have you ever felt you were interrupting a moment with your camera, or that the milieu changed when you took your camera out?

That said, I've been known to bring a camera to the event and I've been known to take pictures. I'm also acutely aware of what happens when I take my camera out, the effect it has on my experience as well as the effect it has on the experiences of those around me.

Too often I see "Photographers" (I'll use this term to describe anyone with a camera out, not necessarily a professional) going on what I call an "Easter Egg Hunt", they're running around snapping pictures of everything they see. Sometimes I'll see people with video cameras walking down the Esplanade filming the entire time, panning left to right.

I’ve served chai tea to topless women only to have our conversation interrupted a dozen times by men asking to take their photo. Honestly, I don't see how women tolerate it, if I was a woman, I don't think I could handle the barrage of cameras pointed at my breasts. The other thing I've noticed is that when the woman politely declines, rarely does she receive a polite response in return. Most often it's a dirty look, or a "how come?" shrug, or worse.

I find it interesting and not coincidental that the people who randomly gift me things (hugs, souvenirs, smiles, a cold beverage) are almost never the same people who ask to take my picture. The people who compliment me on my costumes and take the time to point out their favorite details are not the same people that run up and ask "Can I take your picture?" say "Thanks" (or not) and then run away.

I don't think all photographers are evil. Lecter is a perfect example of someone who operates in the moment, and yet still can whip it out and capture what is going on. He's respectful, asks permission and is about as unobtrusive of a photographer I've met (and he takes beautiful pictures as well). Most importantly however, he has found a nice balance that is heavily in favor of participation and giving and very light on taking.

This year I lost my camera early on, and ended up having one of my best Burns ever. Next year I plan on leaving my camera at home and experiencing 100% of the event through my naked eye.





Really... I mean, are you *really* suggesting that there's nothing but the sheer numbers to indicate why someone may want a recorded memory of a giant, long-term, evolving art-based social event/ experiment, compared to the intrinsic recordability of a place created to serve as many pieces of food-like product as fast as possible? That's just sad.

No, that's what OGB implied (that is, the number of participants might indicate the number of documentaries filmed), and I was merely pointing out my perceived flaw in his logic, by demonstrating that it did not seem to be true for McDonald's.

[Blade]

Er... ruffled feathers settling down now...

(Sorry, I've had a stick up my ass all day- I wasn't really jumping specifically at you, there are just some concepts I've heard beaten to death that tend to push my buttons if I suspect they're popping up and going somewhere stupid... Thanks for the clarification!)

[GrumpyOldBastard]

No, that's what OGB implied (that is, the number of participants might indicate the number of documentaries filmed), and I was merely pointing out my perceived flaw in his logic, by demonstrating that it did not seem to be true for McDonald's.

aaaaaaaaahhhhhahahahahhaah! that is my first reaction to your assumtion as to what i implied. comparing Burningman to macdonalds? come on, get real. thats like comparing apples to onions, and holds no water for me. therefore, i assume your ignorance and move on.

i bring a camera to BM. i photograph my friends, my camp and art intallations i like. i DONT photograph random strangers, and most especially dont photograph women. i have had random strangers notice my camera and ask me to photograph them, and i have refused. weird, huh? i dont want to be labled as someone YOU seem to enjoy labling as a spectator. i bring a camera to burningman to record memories for my self and my friends. photos are a great way to remember things when you have experienced so much in so short a time. i love to watch the doc's that are made, because it brings s different perspective to the table.

as for media at burningman, i have absolutley no problem with that either. if it wer'nt for the media, think of the many thousands of people that would never have experienced bm because of them. the many thousands of art intallations we would have missed because the artist never saw a bm doc, or article. i absolutlely love the idea that the discovery channel did a doc at bm, and cant wait to see it. i will make sure all my friends and family that have just heard me talk endlessly about bm see it. thats my opinion, and it also happens to be the opinion of the vast majority of people that i know.

[Chai Guy]

OGB, maybe you could clarify this statement that you made:

only 27 documentary's so far? actually, thats not bad, considering the number of participants.


Was I wrong to assume that what you meant was that your expectation, relative to the number of participants, was that the number of documentaries produced would be higher than 27?

If that is correct, I was merely offering an example of another experience, McDonald's, where that theory, i.e. number of particpants is relative to the number of documentaries produced, proved false.


Maybe you should go back an re-read what I wrote, I'm not labeling everyone with a camera a spectator, again, I bring a camera to the event. I agree, I think pictures are a wonderful way to remind us of our experiences. I'm just suggesting that pehaps we need to become more concious of our use of cameras and how they effect our experience as it's happening.


As for the Docs, well, I think they are really 2 issues here for me, first Discovery Channel, it's not a doc, it's a scripted reality t.v. show. They set up the shots and ran a script, even paying actors to pose as "participants". Just check out http:.//www.savebrc.org for my opinions and details on this.

The second issue for me is that aside from "Burn Baby Burn" I haven't really seen one that I've enjoyed watching from start to finish. There isn't a Burning Man doc out there that can hold it's weight outside the community. Hell I'm a certified Burning Man geek and I find most of these films to be self indulgent crap.

Maybe you could make a suggestion of one that you find particularly well made and worth watching?

Perhaps when Maurizio comes off tour from his wildly successful documentary "Short Cut To Nirvana" (http://www.melafilms.com/) we can convince him to do his next project on Burning Man, that would be a doc worth checking out.

[GrumpyOldBastard]

OGB, maybe you could clarify this statement that you made:

only 27 documentary's so far? actually, thats not bad, considering the number of participants.


Was I wrong to assume that what you meant was that your expectation, relative to the number of participants, was that the number of documentaries produced would be higher than 27?

yes, you were wrong.

If that is correct, I was merely offering an example of another experience, McDonald's, where that theory, i.e. number of particpants is relative to the number of documentaries produced, proved false.

how in the hell can ANYONE in their right mind compare bm to macdonalds? "oooo i had a wonderful experience at macdonalds today.... i hope someone took a picture of it!" get real dude!


Maybe you should go back an re-read what I wrote, I'm not labeling everyone with a camera a spectator, again, I bring a camera to the event. I agree, I think pictures are a wonderful way to remind us of our experiences. I'm just suggesting that pehaps we need to become more concious of our use of cameras and how they effect our experience as it's happening.

again, as i once asked Da Bomb, why does everyone else have to live up to your expectations? in other words, why do WE have to do what YOU want?


As for the Docs, well, I think they are really 2 issues here for me, first Discovery Channel, it's not a doc, it's a scripted reality t.v. show. They set up the shots and ran a script, even paying actors to pose as "participants". Just check out http:.//www.savebrc.org for my opinions and details on this.

"scripted reality tv show"?!?!? aaaaaaaaaahahahahhahaha!!!!! that is the most assinine thing i've ever heard! so let me get this straight... they come to bm, they hire a bunch of freaks to do stuff... hey. where is my check?

The second issue for me is that aside from "Burn Baby Burn" I haven't really seen one that I've enjoyed watching from start to finish. There isn't a Burning Man doc out there that can hold it's weight outside the community. Hell I'm a certified Burning Man geek and I find most of these films to be self indulgent crap.

then dont buy them, dont watch them.

Maybe you could make a suggestion of one that you find particularly well made and worth watching?

Perhaps when Maurizio comes off tour from his wildly successful documentary "Short Cut To Nirvana" (http://www.melafilms.com/) we can convince him to do his next project on Burning Man, that would be a doc worth checking out.

no thanks, i think its a bunch of crap.

[Chai Guy]

yes, you were wrong..

Ok, then once again, what did you mean by that statement?

again, as i once asked Da Bomb, why does everyone else have to live up to your expectations? in other words, why do WE have to do what YOU want?

No one has to live up to my expectations, I'm merely suggesting that cameras can inhibit, censor, and degrade our immediate experience, and that perhaps we should look at how to mitigate that.

No one has to do what I want, I'm just asking questions here, and offering my opinion.


"scripted reality tv show"?!?!? aaaaaaaaaahahahahhahaha!!!!! that is the most assinine thing i've ever heard! so let me get this straight... they come to bm, they hire a bunch of freaks to do stuff... hey. where is my check?

What they did was interview legitimate particpants and in the middle of the interview they had a paid actor interrupt in order to try to create some kind of "drama". They also staged several scenes and when they didn't get the shot they wanted the first time, they had the people go back and re-enact it for them. You can read all the details on the savebrc.org site.

Oh, and I'm totally serious about those reccomendations, if you see something worth watching, I'd like to check it out.

[Blade]

I'm merely suggesting
(...)No one has to do what I want, I'm just asking questions here, and offering my opinion.


I think the thing here is, at least for me- you didn't start out "merely suggesting," you started out with a condescending tone of righteousness that, if it wasn't actually designed to get people defensive, was certainly a good approximation of that kind of behavior.

It wasn't until people reacted that you started going back with more detailed explanations and slightly revised wordings of what had originally been responded to, then said "go back and read what I wrote"- as though to imply that we're just jumping on you for a misunderstanding.

Well, no. What you originally wrote- the things I quoted, in the case of my personal reactions- was much more judgemental and condescending than your subsequent, explanatory posts.

Going back and explaining your position is one thing- that's helpful, thanks- but acting as though it has been stated as your position from the beginning is misleading and false.

[Chai Guy]

I went back an re-read my original post and was unable to find the condescending tone. No matter, it's all open to interpretation any how, and "tones" don't often translate well in a written forum such as this.

The bottom line, right or wrong is that you flamed me, and I'm totally cool with that and not complaining about it all, but that's what happened.

I'm alse genuinely curious as to people's responses to the questions I posed regarding cameras. How would the event be different if we had a camera free zone? Or what would change if everyone left their camera at home one year? What if we had tickets that you had to give people if you wanted to take their picture and you were only alloted a certain number of them at the start of the week?

[DaBomb]

I blogged about "Privacy" and "Camera Free Zones" and it's because of this issue, I started this thread.

Read all about it you care: Click here. (http://people.tribe.net/dabomb/blog&topicId=08ef0d5b-a2e2-4f4c-ac64-25635835e761)

In summary: I am an advocate for limited media presence at Burning Man. Why I think it’s important to have “Media Free Zones” and “Media Free Theme Camps” because quite frankly, if a camera or recording device is present, it inhibits my ability to radically self express and it heightens my vigilance for my own personal safety and those of my sisters of the playa.

[DaBomb]

That URL is fucked up and I am unable to edit it correctly (Lecter...it's hanging when I hit "Save").

Here's the correct URL:
http://people.tribe.net/dabomb/blog&topicId=08ef0d5b-a2e2-4f4c-ac64-25635835e761

[Lecter]

That URL is fucked up and I am unable to edit it correctly (Lecter...it's hanging when I hit "Save").Fixed.

[DaBomb]

Lecter Luv! Thanks!

[GrumpyOldBastard]

I went back an re-read my original post and was unable to find the condescending tone. No matter, it's all open to interpretation any how, and "tones" don't often translate well in a written forum such as this.

The bottom line, right or wrong is that you flamed me, and I'm totally cool with that and not complaining about it all, but that's what happened.

I'm alse genuinely curious as to people's responses to the questions I posed regarding cameras. How would the event be different if we had a camera free zone? Or what would change if everyone left their camera at home one year? What if we had tickets that you had to give people if you wanted to take their picture and you were only alloted a certain number of them at the start of the week?

ahhh but YOU cant see it because YOU wrote it. we can see it because we didnt write it, we are reading the thoughts of others. to blade, she saw a very condescending tone, i saw a "do as i say, i am right and everyone else is wrong" tone. i think the responses to you is not necessarily the message you bear, but the way you convey it. you want to impose YOUR rules onto everyone else. we disagree. simple.

a "camera free zone" is impossible these days, with the size of camera's nowadays. undoable. leave your camera home for a year? heh. not gonna happen, in ANYONES wildest dreams. picture tickets? lol. only for the honest people. everyone else will be clicking away.

[GrumpyOldBastard]

I blogged about "Privacy" and "Camera Free Zones" and it's because of this issue, I started this thread.

Read all about it you care: Click here. (http://people.tribe.net/dabomb/blog&topicId=08ef0d5b-a2e2-4f4c-ac64-25635835e761)

In summary: I am an advocate for limited media presence at Burning Man. Why I think it’s important to have “Media Free Zones” and “Media Free Theme Camps” because quite frankly, if a camera or recording device is present, it inhibits my ability to radically self express and it heightens my vigilance for my own personal safety and those of my sisters of the playa.

if you want to make your camp "media free" i have no problem with that. you are the one who has to enforce that rule. as for making an entire village or theme camp into a media free zone, i would LOVE to watch you try and enforce it. i'll pull up my chair and have a great "keystone cop" show for the entire burn! as for an entire "media free zone" that wont ever happen. its simply impossible to enforce.

the only problem i have with camera's are the armies of men of all ages running around taking pictures of naked and 1/2 naked women. now if you want to make media more responsible at burningman, only allow women to carry cameras. period. if a man is found with any sort of recording device at all, they are immediately expelled from the event,( literally. they are immediately escorted to the main gate and expelled. as is. no time given to pack their camp or get their car. nothing.) and the offending camera is destroyed on the spot. no appeal, no clemency.

[GrumpyOldBastard]

[QUOTE=Chai Guy]
What they did was interview legitimate particpants and in the middle of the interview they had a paid actor interrupt in order to try to create some kind of "drama". They also staged several scenes and when they didn't get the shot they wanted the first time, they had the people go back and re-enact it for them. You can read all the details on the savebrc.org site.
QUOTE]

ok. i find that last statement unbelieveable. in fact, the only way i'll believe it is if you show me signed, notarized afidavits of every "participant" in the above mentioned charade. i'd like to hear from the "paid" actor, and the brc citizens this happened to. oh, and the "rehersal" footage too. until i see these, i will consider your statement as another "rumor" and treat it as such.

[Chai Guy]

i think the responses to you is not necessarily the message you bear, but the way you convey it.

Perhaps, but don't shoot the messenger, just because you don't like the message.


a "camera free zone" is impossible these days

You're absolutely right, but then again, so is a "camera tagging" system but we have one of those too. It works to the extent that people are willing to support it.


as for an entire "media free zone" that wont ever happen. its simply impossible to enforce.

Again, I think you're probably right, to a certain extent. However, the LLC has done a fairly incredible job of preventing the media from filming without permission. Numerous unauthorized camera crews have been expelled from the playa trying to film. The LLC also successfully prevented MTV from airing footage filmed at the event. They were also able to stop Voyeur Video, a "Girls Gone Wild" type company from continuing to sell their exploitative media filmed at the event. If there is one thing that the LLC does really, really well, it's protect their product.





Sf Weekly Article on the Burning Man VS. Voyeur Video lawsuit: http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2002-08-28/feature.html

Larry Harvey on stopping MTV:
http://www.burningman.com/whatisburningman/lectures/la_vie4.html




ok. i find that last statement unbelieveable. in fact, the only way i'll believe it is if you show me signed, notarized afidavits of every "participant" in the above mentioned charade. i'd like to hear from the "paid" actor, and the brc citizens this happened to. oh, and the "rehersal" footage too. until i see these, i will consider your statement as another "rumor" and treat it as such.

Details of the statement of mine you are referring to can be found here (http://home.earthlink.net/~mybrc/id14.html) on the Savebrc.org site, they all have links to where the content was originally posted. Two of the personal accounts come from people who support the Discovery Channel at Burning Man, and signed releases to be filmed. One was Kernul Killbuck of Kamp APOKILIPTIKA (and the creator of Mini-Man) the other was Da Mongolian (a Black Rock Ranger).

[GrumpyOldBastard]

Details of the statement of mine you are referring to can be found here (http://home.earthlink.net/~mybrc/id14.html) on the Savebrc.org site, they all have links to where the content was originally posted. Two of the personal accounts come from people who support the Discovery Channel at Burning Man, and signed releases to be filmed. One was Kernul Killbuck of Kamp APOKILIPTIKA (and the creator of Mini-Man) the other was Da Mongolian (a Black Rock Ranger).

what is the origional url? i have no interest in giving the "save brc" url a ping. havnt been to the site, not gonna go to the site. not talking about "posts" because ANYONE can create a post about any subject they want to, i'm interested in actual "bring it to a courtroom" proof, not rumor or inuendo.

[Chai Guy]

what is the origional url? i have no interest in giving the "save brc" url a ping. havnt been to the site, not gonna go to the site. not talking about "posts" because ANYONE can create a post about any subject they want to, i'm interested in actual "bring it to a courtroom" proof, not rumor or inuendo.

Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil, eh there Grumpy?

Well, unfortunately I haven't really felt the need or had the time to subponea affidavits from these people, but these are real first person accounts written by people who are in favor of Discovery Channel filming at the event. Seems pretty legit to me ,unless you believe that over a year ago I created these online identities (which happen to also be real people, known to many in the community) to support my (then unknown to me) cause of protesting the Discovery Channel at Burning Man.

Here is what Da Mongolian posted about his experience

originally posted on Tribe.net, Sept. 8, 2005 at 4:10pm
http://bm.tribe.net/thread/7d1f11c1-979a-4dfa-ac72-f615939ad9a1
Thu, September 8, 2005 - 4:10 PM
Re: BMorg Embeds A Journalist in Event Operations
hah!!! I had a first hand interaction with the DCT crew this year.

It was Saturday afternoon, and I was leading the pyro perimeter team around the man, so that the pyro team could load the fireworks etc without being disturbed. Anyway, at one point, the crew up on top of The Man started yelling that someone was throwing eggs, after a few moments, I identified the offender, who was being filmed by a film crew. I jumped in to interact as the Pyro team was mighty pissed (not to mention nervous....initially they didn't know what was being thrown, and wether or not it might ignite what they were working on) Initially, I started out a little hot, because I was being protective of the pyro team. So when I saw that the film crew was now filming my interaction with the host, I asked them not to film, and they quickly complied by turning the camera away.

After a few moments of talk with the egg thrower, I realized that this was the (infamous) DCT crew, after confirming this with the film crew, I told them to go ahead and film, somehow this knowledge also helped me to relax a little. Turns out the host, had interviewed Larry, the day before and asked if he could throw an egg at the man.....something which any other day of the week would not have been a big deal. (other than the moop factor) But as it turns out.....they picked the day of the burn, during the pyro load in to do that particular shoot. I explained the situation, and they were very apologetic. After, I signed a release. Then....one of the producers pulled me aside and said sheepishly....when he threw the egg....we weren't filming....any chance we can just get a shot of him going through the motion, he won't actually throw it.

I thought about it for a second, and then asked them to do it as a cut away from farther away from the man....(at about the L2K ring) As luck would have it....it wasn't far enough away, the Pyro team saw it, and freaked out again, even calling into their Supe and asking that the crew be ejected from the event. Once again, I interacted and explained what I had 'okayed' thankfully they got it that time, and I told them to go far far away from the man, until that evening for the burn. As far as I know, they did.

I personally, have no problem with them filming or with the way the crew behaved themselves....the host....well.....he might be a bit of a yahoo and an ass...(or at least his screen persona is) but then....there are plenty of other asses at BM....so big deal.

daMongolian


Here is Kernul Killbuck's account as originally posted on eplaya (burningman.com)
http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?t=10142&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60





Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 335
Location: Secret undesclosed location in Nevada
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a sort of After Action...

On Tuesday night, as Miniman begged his father to acknowledge him... which he eventually did... I was approached by the Discovery crew for an interview. They did fully describe why they were, and what they were there for-- and said they would not film me without a signed release.

Well, being a (sorta) shameless self promoter, I fully agreed. As the interview began, a fellow in a tan suit with an accent began to question my responses to the question of "what Burning Man means." He was rather good at it... but so am I-- profession don't you know... and I enjoyed the barbed banter. I also had the advantage of having seen this person also engage another in an interview a few minutes before off in the distance- but when he came forward with me, I understood he was no average BRC citizen, but the appointed shill, there to do the job of having the interviewee question his or her own assumptions.

In the end, I left them with a laughing phrase they surely will never use, even on cable.

Kernul Killbuck,
APOKILIPTIKA
_________________
"The End of the World will be Better Next year"
http://www.apokiliptika.com

"Who am I Really?
http://kostoomarts.com

So there ya' go.

[GrumpyOldBastard]

well, neither incident seem to be quite as sinister as you make it sound. as for the second scenario, the person making the statement is assuming the other fellow is a shill. i've read nothing that would make me think that i wouldnt love to see the doc or recommend it to my family and friends.

[Artzilla]

Oh Man,
I got ta take a piss.

[DaBomb]

On February 2, 2006, the Discovery network aired a reality television show filmed at the event called "Only In America-Burning Man".

In the show my image was broadcast without my knowledge or consent.

According to Andie Grace, the Manager of Communications for Burning Man, the Discovery production crew was to get a signed waiver of anybody they filmed.

I would like to know if this has happened to you -- if the unlawful use of your image, art or performance -- was used on this episode of "Only In America".
Legal recourse is available to you in this matter.

Please send me a message here on NoSpectators.com